Why Can Not Use Dimmer Switch for Ceiling Fan

jocanon

I accept a dimmer switch, the Lutron Spacer Arrangement, that is fabricated for incandescent or halogen lite bulbs but non LED. I want to use the switch on LED recessed lights (it is the simply dimmer switch I found in my toll range that tin can be controlled via IR for multiple switches in the same room). I have done some research, as well as my own experimentation, and discovered that if I include a 25 watt incandescent bulb in the circuit, the LEDs work simply fine with the dimmer. Without the 25 watt incandescent bulb, the LEDs will not turn off or dim. I may be able to become abroad with less than 25 watts, I accept yet to examination that. 25 watts is the smallest light bulb I have laying around to test with at the present.

Now, what I am wanting to do is put a resistor in the circuit to act every bit a dummy load instead of the incandescent and then I will not have to hide a 25 watt incandescent anywhere or worry about needing to replace information technology when the bulb burns out. I have seen this done in other forums.

I take several questions regarding this resistor equally a dummy load solution:

1. Is it safe? I can mount it to the recessed calorie-free tin can as a heat sink. The can has a congenital in thermal shutoff feature already connected. Or would it be safer to mount the resistor remotely with its own estrus sink and thermal shut off circuit.

2. Other forums I take seen them use this type of chassis mount resistor for this:
**broken link removed**
Would this exist a skilful resistor for this project and could I use thermal paste to mountain it to the recessed calorie-free can? I would insulate the leads with heat shrink.

three. Would the way to hook up the resistor simply be: connect it to the hot and neutral wires (black and white wires) in parallel with the LED recessed lighting?

4. Would I potentially exist in violation of any sections of the National Electric Code (NEC)? If yes, is there a manner to build this and install it that would be in keeping inside the NEC requirements? In other words, what key things would I demand to be sure I practise in order to exist in compliance with NEC, peculiarly with regard to fire safety?

5. Lastly, is it safe? I know I already asked this, but I want to add emphasis. I exercise not desire to burn my house downwards. Probably a better way to give-and-take this question is, is there a style it can be done safely? Manifestly it can be done in an unsafe manner that would fire the firm downwards, but I am wondering if there is a way this tin be washed safely, and to code. Further, if I mount it to the recessed calorie-free tin that is IC rated (significant information technology tin can come in directly contact with insulation) would I be correct in assuming that the IC rating is probably null and void and I would demand to be sure no insulation touches the tin is it might get too hot (still falls under the "is it safe question") or can information technology notwithstanding come into contact with insulation because the thermal shut off component of the can is what regulates how hot it tin go, and the manufacturers and powers that exist knew this upper limit when they gave it the IC rating, which would mean that it still maintains its IC rating and can still safely come in direct contact with insulation?

I think some of these questions are going to exist difficult, if not impossible, to answer definitively (i.e. will the can loose its IC rating, may not be able to know for certain...), so I am interested in opinions and thoughts on the matter, fifty-fifty if you do non know for sure or cannot cite the code sections, etc...

Cheers,
Jeremy

KeepItSimpleStupid

Did you investigate "Dimmable LEDS".

One time you change, you loose the UL rating.

Your not likely to demand 25 Watts. Those resistors will be fine. Guessing 5-10 W. Have a nite light seedling? You tin examination with soldered wires.

I really don't know what you have to piece of work with, BUT wiring all the loads to another enclosure COUD piece of work. And then might using the housings.

The wire you utilise will be important. Building wire, appliance wire and Teflon insulated wire. No lower than eighteen AWG. Preferably the size of the excursion (12, fourteen AWG).

MrAl

Howdy,

I had recommended using a bulb in conjunction with an LED not dimmable bulb to a friend a long while back. He picked up i of those "Y" sockets where you screw that into the ceiling lamp socket and y'all go two sockets, then you can screw the LED seedling into one socket and the incandescent bulb into the other and that gives yous some dimming features for both bulbs. He used that setup for about a year before i got him a regular dimmable LED bulb, and at present he uses that exclusively without the other seedling.

The problem with a resistor substitute is that the resistor dissipates ability and whenever you take power dissipation you have heat, and whenever you have heat you MUST provide a free air flow to the source of the heat (resistor) or else the temperature builds upwards to an extremely high level. To requite you some idea how this works in physics, in theory a perfectly insulated power of 1 millionth of a watt (1/1000000 watt or 0.000001 watt) placed inside a regular 8 foot high room as large as a football field volition eventually build the temperature up to infinity. Merely of course before that happens something burns down and the estrus escapes. All the same, given two small vents one on one cease and some other on the other end, there is now complimentary air flow getting to the heat source, then it dissipates from the heat source into the box so out to the free air space. The temperature stays at a prophylactic level.

Even 10 watts is plenty to crusade issues, and that requires quite a bit of free air space also. The way this is handled normally is to use a very much over rated resistor than the problem really requires, and for something that is somewhat enclosed a ten to 1 ratio would not be ridiculous but safety. So a 100 watt resistor operating at ten watts, but again with free air flow. If at that place is no costless air period then all is lost.

So the trouble is an enclosed estrus source, and the solution is gratis air flow or forced air flow. Note that a heatsink does Non solve the trouble unless the heatsink itself has gratis air flow, and that is considering over again the solution is free air flow and this is even when a heatsink is also required.

What a heatsink does is draws the heat into a larger volume and that volume being larger must therefore have a larger surface area, and that larger surface area means the heat can dissipate into the free air much faster and thus help to cool the main heat source (the resistor). Heatsinks are designed to accept a large expanse to volume ratio and so they tin can help misemploy the power faster, but again into the free air.

So if you plan to use a resistor y'all must utilize farthermost caution to make sure that the heat tin can be dissipated into the gratuitous air no matter how it is done.

This is sometimes difficult to practice when the heat source has to be enclosed. In a regular chassis, air holes are often incorporated in order to allow free air menstruation, or else the heatsink is connected such that it is on the outside of the box, and thus the oestrus again gets out of the box into the free air.

Another requirement for a safe setup is to use a non resettable thermal fuse. These are bachelor with unlike temperature ratings. The idea here is that if something blocks the free air flow, the thermal fuse blows open and disconnects the ability. The worst case at that place is that the light goes out, rather than burn the business firm. The thermal fuse all the same must be mounted to the device (resistor) correctly, in a manner that allows information technology to achieve the aforementioned or nearly the aforementioned temperature every bit the resistor. That way information technology truly detects the temperature of the resistor.

Just so you know, some bulbs are designed such that fifty-fifty they tin can not exist used in an enclosed ceiling box and they state that on the packaging usually.

Is this legal? Probably not. Most nothing out of the ordinary is legal. So you better be careful if you decide to practice this.
Besides keep in mind that applied science mainstream consumer devices ways rigorous testing to make certain there is no danger. This often requires testing and retesting over a period of fourth dimension to brand sure a new design is capable, and this is often washed by engineers with avant-garde degrees and years of feel, and they nonetheless dont become it right sometimes.

So after reading the above if you lot think you are upward to this task, then past all means go on and i wish yous good luck. Still, with my forty+ years of experience with design and testing in the lab and in the field and seeing how the craziest things can go incorrect with intial designs, my all-time recommendation is to avert all the work and possible heartache and just purchase a dimmable LED bulb. Even then you may want to test it over several hours to make sure information technology doesnt get too hot besides.

jocanon

Did you investigate "Dimmable LEDS".
One time y'all modify, you lot loose the UL rating.

Your not likely to need 25 Watts. Those resistors will exist fine. Guessing 5-10 W. Take a nite light bulb? You tin can test with soldered wires.

I really don't know what you accept to piece of work with, BUT wiring all the loads to some other enclosure COUD work. And then might using the housings.

The wire you lot use will be important. Edifice wire, appliance wire and Teflon insulated wire. No lower than 18 AWG. Preferably the size of the excursion (12, fourteen AWG).

Thanks for your response. The LEDs are dimmable, it is the detail switch that needs aid in dimming them (it is not a switch designed to be used with LEDs, dimmable or not). As far as wires, I was simply thinking I would solder the hot and neutral from the household circuit directly onto the leads to the resistor, and so I would exist using Romex xiv AWG wire. Could ceramic resistors work as well, or would you recommend sticking with the surface mount resistors?

jocanon

Hi,
So after reading the above if you think you are up to this task, then past all ways proceed and i wish you good luck. However, with my 40+ years of experience with design and testing in the lab and in the field and seeing how the craziest things can go wrong with intial designs, my best recommendation is to avoid all the work and possible heartache and just buy a dimmable LED seedling. Even and then you may want to test information technology over several hours to make sure information technology doesnt become too hot too.

As I already mentioned above, I exercise take dimmable bulbs (I posted that at the same time you posted your response, so y'all didn't run across it). My problem is I want to use a dimmer that is not designed for LED dimmable bulbs. At any charge per unit, I appreciate your response. I think y'all brand proficient points. Now I am leaning to simply putting an incandescent lite fixture in my attic above the recessed lighting. I think that is a much easier and less problematic solution fifty-fifty though I will periodically have to change out the bulb. One concern I have is, aren't they making incandescent bulbs illegal so they will no longer be selling them? What tin I do then if I cannot even get an incandescent seedling in the nearly time to come. Maybe I will just non be able to utilize the Lutron Spacer Arrangement anymore. It says I can use element of group vii lights too, are those going away equally well?

MrAl

Hi,

The tendency is to use the curly bulbs, simply i am non sure if yous can get dimmable ones or not as i never needed that.

Dimmers should work on dimmable LED bulbs, just they probably dont work on non dimmable LED bulbs. Who said yous need a special dimmer? Mayhap some dont work, simply i think the newer models should work.

KeepItSimpleStupid

I was thinking, something like this: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Wiegmann...r-Pull-Box-with-Knockout-SC101004RC/100118037

You could mount a 1/eight" aluminum plate to the bottom like nearly process enclosures take. e.g. **broken link removed**

Not too crazy over the solder direct. In that location are other neater, more expensive methods. DIN runway. due east.g. http://world wide web.automationdirect.com/adc...nal_Blocks/DINnector_DIN-Rail_Terminal_Blocks Just using this every bit an example. Y'all accept to buy bpxes from these guys.

You get together terminals/jumpers on a shallow T-shaped rail. They could be arranged similar
stop-ground-neutral-hot-end-cap-(Repaeat*x <round-neutral-hot-cease-cap->)stop

The terminals are typically open up at one end, so the entire set has to be closed. Yous can employ the end caos every bit partitions. The ground terminals are cherry-red/yellow and don;t need caps.

You resistors would exist connected to a terminal vis stranded wire. The romex wires would enter, exist strained relieved and connected directly to a fix, the neutral-ground-hot might exist improve suited, but information technology requires more terminate caps.
It's more than expensive, smashing and clean.

jocanon

Howdy,
The trend is to utilise the curly bulbs, but i am not certain if you lot tin get dimmable ones or not equally i never needed that.

Dimmers should work on dimmable LED bulbs, merely they probably dont piece of work on non dimmable LED bulbs. Who said y'all demand a special dimmer? Maybe some dont work, just i recollect the newer models should work.

I don't know who said information technology, but I am telling you it is true...you cannot use certain dimmers even on dimmable LEDs. I know because I tin can go into my family room and demonstrate it right now. I have dimmable LEDs, just recently purchased from Lowes. They say dimmable on the box. They work perfectly with the dimmers I got that say they are uniform withe LEDs, only not with the Lutron Spacer System dimmers because they say right on the box only works with incandescent or halogen. But you lot can make information technology work with dimmable LEDs if y'all put an incandescent on it. I know I can become dimmers that are compatible with LEDs without an incandescent (I accept 3 installed in unlike rooms right now and two more in a box waiting to be put in my kids rooms). I would gladly do get an LED uniform dimmer if y'all could show me one that can exist controlled via infrared so I can use my Harmony remote, and cost less that $50 a switch. That is what I get with the Spacer Organisation (on Amazon/ebay). I cannot find it in LED uniform dimmers. There is an LED dimmer Lutron makes that can be controlled via RF but that doesn't work, I need IR, as far as I can tell even in the less than $100 category, IR controlled dimmable LED compatible dimmers practise not currentlt be on the market.

I am surprised you guys practise non know this. It is a very well known fact. If you check the package on whatever dimmer at the large box stores information technology will e'er say what type of bulb it works with and what type it does not. I practise not fully understand why some dimmers do not work with dimmable LEDs, but I think it has something to do with the low voltage needed to plow them on and particularly with the Spacer System, it needs to draw a small current to part even when lights are off, I think this pocket-sized current us just enough to not let the LEDs turn off...trust me, that is exactly what happens. If I do non have an incandescent with the Spacer Organization dimmer, the LEDs will plough on but never plough completely off.

jocanon

I was thinking, something similar this: http://world wide web.homedepot.com/p/Wiegmann...r-Pull-Box-with-Knockout-SC101004RC/100118037
You could mount a i/8" aluminum plate to the lesser like most process enclosures have. east.g. **cleaved link removed**

Non too crazy over the solder direct. In that location are other neater, more than expensive methods. DIN rail. e.g. http://world wide web.automationdirect.com/adc...nal_Blocks/DINnector_DIN-Rail_Terminal_Blocks Just using this every bit an case. Yous have to purchase bpxes from these guys.

You assemble terminals/jumpers on a shallow T-shaped rail. They could be bundled like
stop-ground-neutral-hot-stop-cap-(Repaeat*x <round-neutral-hot-end-cap->)stop

The terminals are typically open at one finish, so the entire set up has to exist closed. Yous tin can use the end caos as partitions. The ground terminals are crimson/yellow and don;t need caps.

You lot resistors would be connected to a terminal vis stranded wire. The romex wires would enter, exist strained relieved and connected directly to a set, the neutral-footing-hot might be amend suited, only information technology requires more end caps.
It'southward more than expensive, neat and clean.

Those sound similar practiced ideas. Peradventure I can practise it afterwards all...I but don't know if it is worth it, or merely go an incandescent in the cranium so the LEDs will work right.

MrAl

I don't know who said it, only I am telling you it is true...yous cannot use certain dimmers even on dimmable LEDs. I know because I can go into my family room and demonstrate it right at present. I accept dimmable LEDs, but recently purchased from Lowes. They say dimmable on the box. They work perfectly with the dimmers I got that say they are compatible withe LEDs, but not with the Lutron Spacer Arrangement dimmers because they say right on the box but works with incandescent or halogen. But y'all tin make information technology work with dimmable LEDs if you lot put an incandescent on it. I know I tin get dimmers that are uniform with LEDs without an incandescent (I have iii installed in different rooms right now and 2 more than in a box waiting to be put in my kids rooms). I would gladly do go an LED compatible dimmer if you could evidence me one that can be controlled via infrared so I tin can utilise my Harmony remote, and cost less that $50 a switch. That is what I go with the Spacer System (on Amazon/ebay). I cannot find it in LED uniform dimmers. There is an LED dimmer Lutron makes that can be controlled via RF merely that doesn't work, I need IR, as far equally I can tell fifty-fifty in the less than $100 category, IR controlled dimmable LED compatible dimmers practise not currentlt exist on the market.
I am surprised you guys do not know this. It is a very well known fact. If you cheque the packet on whatever dimmer at the large box stores it will e'er say what type of bulb it works with and what type it does not. I do not fully understand why some dimmers exercise not work with dimmable LEDs, but I call back it has something to do with the low voltage needed to turn them on and particularly with the Spacer System, it needs to draw a small current to function fifty-fifty when lights are off, I think this small current u.s.a. just enough to non let the LEDs plough off...trust me, that is exactly what happens. If I do not accept an incandescent with the Spacer System dimmer, the LEDs will plow on just never turn completely off.

Hi,

We dont have to purchase dimmers every mean solar day.
Sometimes engineering science is not that unique in that everything is not so much the same that you tin non always say the aforementioned thing about all products even if similar. I've been surprised at what i see out in that location these days.
Another case is one of the Panasonic microwave ovens. It'southward got a built in inverter, then yous would think that it would work on ALL power settings, simply information technology doesnt. You would also remember that the ability setting is only like other mic ovens, But it's Not, you have to press the friggin' power button 10 friggin' times to get to power level 1. Who designed such a stupid thing.
And that is only One example.

So it does not surprise me too much to find that some dont work, but since LED makers must know the workings of a standard dimmer they must go by that.

Anyway, a friend has an LED seedling in the ceiling and he uses an RF type remote. That means some RF remote dimmers practise piece of work with LED bulbs.
If yous are having this much trouble leave and buy one that works.

jocanon

If you lot are having this much trouble become out and purchase one that works.

Again, I need IR not RF. I do not accept a universal RF remote, non even sure there is ane, but I do have a universal IR remote (Harmony). Then I demand a dimmer controlled via IR, not RF.

crutschow

I would get some pocket-sized nighttime-low-cal blazon incandescent bulbs as small equally yous can detect (I've seen as small as 3W) and experiment to see how minor a bulb you really need.
If you desire to use a bulb as a load, you lot can greatly increment their lifetime by connecting ii bulbs of the same wattage in series, This would significantly minimize how ofttimes they would have to be replaced.

jocanon

If you lot desire to utilise a seedling every bit a load, you can greatly increase their lifetime by connecting two bulbs of the same wattage in series, This would significantly minimize how often they would have to exist replaced.

Skilful to know. Thanks.

jocanon

The problem with a resistor substitute is that the resistor dissipates ability and whenever you lot accept power dissipation y'all have heat, and whenever you lot have estrus you MUST provide a free air period to the source of the heat (resistor) or else the temperature builds up to an extremely loftier level.

Information technology will exist in the cranium which has some air flow through the vents, not a lot, but some...would this be enough, or do you mean information technology has to take fan.

MrAl

Once more, I need IR not RF. I practice not have a universal RF remote, not even sure there is 1, just I practise have a universal IR remote (Harmony). So I need a dimmer controlled via IR, not RF.

Oh i run into, well that sounds foreign that they dont brand one, simply that'due south the way things are these days.
Some people build their own stuff but yeah that is harder to practise.
The remote the friend has is a separate remote, but it is pocket-size so information technology is not too much more problem having that actress RF remote.

It will exist in the attic which has some air flow through the vents, not a lot, simply some...would this be enough, or do you hateful it has to have fan.

Most attics are large enough, as long as you lot have a practiced heat sink or at least have the resistor out in the gratis air of the attic. Free air ways it is mounted and then that the air in the space effectually it can circulate with convention currents. Forced air means a fan.

Some cautions would be:
Use a very much over rated resistor, like x percent would be very skillful.
Make certain nothing tin can drop onto the device and thus cake the air catamenia, especially newspaper, paper-thin, etc.
Make sure no droppings tin can build upwardly on it over time, which includes dust.
Probably should mount it inside a steel box with air holes like a regular chassis would have.
Try to recall of anything that can become incorrect and correct it.
Last only not least:
Take a mechanical motor driven arm mounted such that if information technology gets too hot, it throws your habitation owners insurance policy in the garbage <chuckle>
Seriously though, if a burn did commencement and they found out it was that it might be a problem with the insurance company.

jocanon

Seriously though, if a fire did outset and they establish out it was that it might be a problem with the insurance company.

That'south the part that makes me nervous...I recollect it would keep me up at dark and probably brand the endeavour non worth the trouble. I may try the nightlight thought. What I am thinking is mounting iii divide lights in the attic (I have 3 separate LED circuits with Spacer System dimmers this applies to). I am thinking the cheapo pull cord lights from Lowes (like less than a couple bucks a popular) that accept a three prong outlet included on them. So I will put a night light on each 1 of those power outlets if that works to ready the LED dimming and exit the light bulb pull string turned off (not the nightlight low-cal bulb, but the larger one attached to each fixture) unless I want low-cal in the attic, then I always accept the option of turning ane or all iii on while I am upwards there. That style I practice not think anything volition be in code violation (bold I connect everything correctly according to NEC codes...) or give the insurance company an out in event of fire. If I ever sell the business firm, the new possessor volition probably wonder why I have three lights with nightlights in the attic lol...unless I explain it to them. I will but tell them we brand our kids slumber upwardly there when they are bad, but nosotros are nice enough to give them lights. The space is only about 3 anxiety high at its high point, so that would be cruel and unusual penalisation! Actually, the more I think near it...my kids would love that, they are always begging me to go far the cranium when I am up there lol, btw, in case you can't tell, I am kidding about making them sleep up in that location...I don't need cps knocking on my door in case they are reading this and don't get the humor

.

KeepItSimpleStupid

A duplex outlet gets you two nightlights. A dual box gets you 4. four*7 = 28W.

I put a quartz halogen light in the cranium. It says to only use outside, so it'due south kinda a gray area.

The light's never on for very long AND there is an indicator if it should accidentally become switched on. It'south on a dual box, where the hall tiptop is upward/downward and the attic lite goes left/right with an indicator. I'd love to put another i up there.

Why Can Not Use Dimmer Switch for Ceiling Fan

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